How to Avoid Satan Himself Laying in the Space Between You and Other Loose Ends From Real Marriage

Jan 6, 12 • Books52 Comments

You can read other parts of my review on Real Marriage: The Truth About Sex, Friendship and Life Together by Mark and Grace Driscoll herehere and here. There are also lots of other thoughtful reviews bouncing around the interwebs. But we’ll continue in my review style for better or worse.

Some might be wondering why the litany of posts on this book. If it’s so bad, why do I keep harping on it?

Of course there is such a blatant disregard for women with Driscoll. He’s (in)famous. I guess I just thought that his co-authorship with his wife Grace would temper his bombasticity. But she seems to have bought in to it.

The concentration on a man’s sexual needs and total ignorance of any non-male-like needs a women might have prevents this from being a useful book on marriage. Therefore, The Burner Blog cannot recommend that any couple needing information/advice/tools to improve their marriage take this book seriously.

I keep writing because think the book really is a bad book. In my (very male) opinion, it’s not affirming or helpful to women. Women are more than tools to be used for their husbands sexual gratification. There is more to sex than intercourse. Children play a role in marriage. There is little mention of the mystery of marriage á la Ephesians 5. Suggestions for improvements in communication or money are absent.

Considering that the most common causes of divorce are money, kids, sex or communication, it seems that mention should have been made of each of these.

Further, there is little reference to a husband and wife’s spiritual relationship or need to worship together. Maybe not everybody thinks that is important, but it’s conspicuous by its absence.

So, in conclusion, the book is worse than bad if the readers try to mimic the ‘husband-first’ attitude riddled throughout the book. It’s harmful, domineering, and controlling at best. I can’t believe Mars Hill wives would go for it, much less Grace.

Oh, yes; Grace. I wonder about her and how she will react to their relationship being published. With the subtle slights and anecdotes about her failings. I have pretty thick skin and I couldn’t handle my wife writing this book about me.

So, I leave you with little Driscoll pearls that I found funny or surprising or shocking or all three during my time with Real Marriage. Thanks for the comments, and feel free to avoid the book when you see it on the shelves.

 Sure, the naked people you are looking at are hot…but so is hell. (151)

The next time you and your spouse are lying in bed angry, bitter and physically distant, with your backs turned towards each other, imagine Satan himself sleeping in the open space between the two of you. (159)

That summer we took a vacation in central Oregon with Grace’s family. During the vacation, I kept a legal-sized yellow pad handy and started a lengthy homework assignment for Grace…I did not want to boss Grace around and tell her how our new life together would be. But I needed to help her by drawing out her thoughts, dreams, fears and needs–or what Peter meant when commanding husbands to be “understanding” with their wives. (206)

I would wager that ‘homework on a legal pad’ is not what Peter meant by “understanding.” Shame on me for have such a little imagination.

 

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52 Responses to How to Avoid Satan Himself Laying in the Space Between You and Other Loose Ends From Real Marriage

  1. Matthew Pittman says:

    The polarizing nature of this guy, this book, and these reviews makes me want to read the book much more than if it was left ignored. Literary rubbernecking?

    • stephy says:

      You’ve got to read it for yourself, Matt. You won’t believe it.

      • Jen says:

        I wonder if the true message of this book isn’t, “If you’re in a relationship where the friendship and the sex is great, but you’re not married — come to our church so we can help you fuck it up.”

  2. [...] kind of nice to see Fuller Seminary’s Burner blog so emphatically reject this book in the fourth installment of Moore’s review:[We] cannot recommend that any couple needing information/advice/tools to improve their marriage [...]

  3. This is a really poor review, beyond legitimate criticism, into prejudice. In fact, the way you present it, it seems like a totally different book to the one I read. For example:

     total ignorance of any non-male-like needs

    Did you, for example read the section entitled “Honour your wife emotionally”?

    Women are more than tools to be used for their husbands sexual gratification. 

    I didn’t see Driscoll suggesting or imlying otherwise. Indeed, he writes against that view:

    Husbands and wives live on a continuum from selfish to servant both in and out of the bedroom. If a marriage is between two selfish people, it will be cold and functional. If a marriage is between a selfish person and a servant, the marriage will be selfish and abusive. If a marriage is between two servants, it will be increasingly uniting and satisfying both in and out of the bedroom.161Perhaps the sharpest dagger to the heart of sexual selfishness is 1 Corinthians 7:3–5

    Or take

    marriage is about friendship. All the talk about spending time and doing life together, making memories, being a good listener, growing old and taking care of each other, being honest, having the long view of things, repenting and forgiving can be summed up in one word—friendship.

    More than merely ‘tool for sexual gratification’ it would seem.

    There is little mention of the mystery of marriage á la Ephesians 5.

    That’s a fair criticism. I would also have like to have seen more about how marriage is a symbol of Christ and the church.

    Suggestions for improvements in communication or money are absent.

    really?

    As with many things in marriage, communication is key.

    he also should steward [money] well. He should have a wise budget that accounts for spending, saving, investing, retirement, tithing, and being generous to his family as much as he is able.

    Further, there is little reference to a husband and wife’s spiritual relationship or need to worship together. Maybe not everybody thinks that is important, but it’s conspicuous by its absence. 

    It’s not absent. There’s a whole section called “worshiping together at home”. He talks about sharing theology, ministry and church. How did you miss these?

    With the subtle slights and anecdotes about her failings.

    I find you’re attitude on this very patronising – they both admit their past failings, and they are there to show how they got over them. We might well ask if we needed these personal stories, but to imply, as you appear to have done, that they were included as a kind of put down is cynical at best.It’s far from a perfect book (not sure I’d even recommend it), for sure.. there’s problems, not least with his exegesis of Song of Solomon, and of course, not everyone is going to share the complimentarian view they promote, but I found your review to be beyond critical,  and rather more prejudiced, and distortive of the content of the book.

    • Jona Whipple says:

      “This is a really poor review, beyond legitimate criticism, into prejudice.”

      Andrew, I noticed that on July 19, 2011, you wrote on another blog “I’ve benifited from some of Drisccoll’s teaching…”  Could this not place you in the area of prejudice in discussion of how his teachings have hurt others?  I ask you to try very hard to understand the emotional pain this book could cause some people.  Please try.  I know you’re capable of understanding this, because in the same blog comment, you wrote “…but there are certainly things about his approach that concern me.”  There are things about his approach that concern me, too.  Many things. 

      • Findo says:

        Could this not place you in the area of prejudice in discussion of how his teachings have hurt others?

        Possibly.. no one is immune from bias and prejudice. Though, I’ve also been willing to criticise Driscoll as well (as I did today), so I don’t think that my view comes from any kind of loyalty (I almost certainly would not go to his church, actually).

         I ask you to try very hard to understand the emotional pain this book could cause some people.  Please try. 

        Well, that’s what I’m trying to do – that’s why I asked for examples.

      • Pastafari000 says:

        I’m not too familiar with Mark Driscoll, so perhaps this is unfair, but after many years of volunteering with female survivors of domestic abuse, I *can* tell you that it’s a pretty textbook sign of abuse when a man tells (overtly or passive aggressively) his wife how to dress or wear her hair; and though I’ve never encountered a woman who received “homework” from her husband, my gut response is that it sounds very controlling and infantilizing towards the wife.

        On a more personal level, in 8 years of marriage, my partner and I have ONLY had sex when both of us are mood- to imply it’s selfish to do otherwise is  scary to me. I realize that in the grand scheme of things, it’s a fairly young marriage, but we’ve managed to keep the passion going strong for nearly a decade now, and I can’t comprehend a worldview where it’s desirable to have sex when only one partner truly wants it. I’d think that a Christian marriage guide would focus on encouraging each partner to learn best how to inspire passion in each another, not expect the “uninspired” partner to simply lay back and think of the queen, as it were.

        Those two examples alone make it seems like a no-brainer that  this book is a minefield of terrible advice.

         

      • Eli says:

        I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt, Andrew, that perhaps you have never known anyone who was abused. Therefore, of course you do not understand the perspective and how those quotes are harmful. 
        First, look at the quotes Stephanie provided as a whole (lets go with just the ones you lumped together as ones where it seems to you that Stephanie just “disagrees with his views on sex.” )
        I believe in stating that she only has a problem with those quotes because of differing views on sex, you have missed the point. The point is not the way he chooses to have sex, but that he is trying to tell people that “THIS is the way things must be done,” not to mention, it doesn’t seem like his wife has a whole lot of say in what happens and doesn’t, which is demeaning.  Realize that from the pulpit (and now pages), this man is trying to tell people what is ok to do with their private lives and what isn’t. It is another way of trying to control others. I hope that makes sense and helps you in your attempts to understand. 
        I am reminded of other, scarier controllers who eventually became dictators, actuallly. People entrenched in a particular church culture will of course take what he says as what they must do, because they think they must or they will be shamed, etc. So,  whether they WANT anal sex, children, or anything else, they will do it because the PASTOR says so. Leaders easily use shame as a tool to control people in situations like this. Shame is a hugely painful and damaging thing to come out from under and learn to live your own life (I am in the process of trying to come out from under it and the weight is staggering. At times I wonder if I will ever live shame-free). It makes it hard to realize that you have value as you and can move forward as you are and you do not have to have children or whatever else in order to do so freely 

        I am attempting kindness in response to you, and I sincerely hope you hear it that way, and that  this helps you understand, if that is truly your intent.

      • Findo says:

        Thanks for your kind reply, Eli. 

        I take on board that I need to try and understand that perspective more, as well as keep said quotes in the context of the whole book and what I saw it saying (whether one agrees with that or not). For example – he seems to me to make a big case for freedom of conscience in regards to sexual practices – to the point that many have criticised his liberality in that area.. so I find it difficult to conclude that he’s telling people what to do. But, maybe I’m letting my assumptions and thoughts colour what I read there too.

        I think it’s ok to disagree on what we gleem from the book – but I do see how I was too dismissive of someone else’s reason for their view.

        I do, as it happens, think he has a dangerous habit of saying rash and thus, hurtful things.. 

      • Brian Overholt says:

        Andrew, I can relate to you in one area:  you’re really trying to be objective, and that includes giving Driscoll the benefit of the doubt and trying to find the value in his work… while you also recognize and can sympathize with those that may have been hurt.

        After all, people can usually find something offensive in almost any book, no matter how well-intentioned it’s author.

        I can’t speak intelligently about this book, because I have not read it. But I can speak about Driscoll’s character and what he’s said and written in the past.

        This is a man that once participated in online church forums under the screen name “William Wallace” and publicly humiliated several congregants who disagreed with “Wallace’s” statements. He accused them of very personal sins. Many in the church forum stepped in to ask “Wallace” to back off… until they found out is was Driscoll.

        This is a man that screams like a drill sergeant at men’s retreats, lashing out at them on topics of pornography and lust… but then uses explicit language and sexual themes and humor from the pulpit because that his “audience.”

        According to Driscoll, the only excuse for a man to be a stay-at-home dad is if he’s disabled. Otherwise he needs to be the provider, and his wife needs to quit her job. A man that does not provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever (1 Tim 5:8) but agreeing to stay at home so that his wife may have a career does not count as “providing.”

        Also Driscoll has said in previous written work on the Song of Solomon, that oral sex and strip shows are mandatory for Christian wives.

        Frankly, Driscoll may think that he is honestly teaching God’s word… but he really goes FAR BEYOND God’s word to teach things that have great potential to be damaging to some couples. And the delight that Driscoll seems to take in screaming at people (and ridiculing them when he thinks it’s anonymous) I believe betrays a character that I would not personally trust with the responsibility of ministry.

        There may be parts of this book that are valuable… but that is true of even the worst books. But as someone who is preparing for the ministry myself, I would never recommend any of Driscoll’s books to anyone. He has proven too often to misuse and misapply God’s word carelessly, in my opinion.

        Some people like him, and that’s fine. But there are many other good books on marriage that I could recommend to people, without exposing them to the potentially harmful tendency that Driscoll has to extract applications from scripture that are not necessary, and find some black and white commandments in scripture that are not there.

        God Bless,

        Brian

      • Findo says:

        Thanks Brian. You might appreciate what I wrote about that kind of thing.

        I am coming to the conclusion that there’s a point where lack of wisdom becomes a problem that overshadows however ‘right’ they get the gospel, if you understand what I mean?

      • Brian Overholt says:

        Thanks Andrew,I tried to visit your site, but it appears to be down. I even Googled it and tried to click in from there, but I get the following error:”Error establishing a database connection”

  4. Bobby says:

    Reviews like these should be re-named “Revenge of the Rob Bell supporters.” The Calvinists had a field day with ‘Love Wins,’ and now the progressives get their turn with Driscoll’s book. I really wonder if Bell and Driscoll secretly meet for coffee every once in a while just to talk about their critics and the fact that none of them A) know them and B) ever attempt to understand their points of view. 

  5. stephy says:

    This is the best review I’ve read of Real Marriage so far. I’ve read the book and am extremely concerned about its potential to do immense damage damage. I want to get a sumo wrestler to poop on every copy and set them on fire to  help preserve the mental and spiritual health of the people who would read it.

    • AF says:

      Could you point out which teachings in the book have potential to do damage? Was the bits about being friends, or listening, or serving?

      • Laura Turner says:

        I think she’s referring to, you know, the misogyny, the arrogance, the continued elevation of a man’s needs over a woman’s, the self-serving misinterpretations of scripture. That stuff.

      • Findo says:

        Misogyny? Elevating man’s needs over a woman’s? really? Examples please. I didn’t not see any of that. (e.g. see my post below)

      • Bobby says:

        The point of these reviews (and others like them) seem to be to provide more ammunition to those who already don’t like Driscoll. 

        This is the anti-Calvininsts’ version of “Farewell Rob Bell.”

      • Kells_Ash says:

        I think Driscoll’s doing a pretty good job of providing ammunition himself.

      • Erin Adams says:

        is this really about calvinism, Bobby?!

      • Kells_Ash says:

        “My pregnant wife came home with her previously long hair that I loved chopped
        off & replaced with a short, mommish haircut.  She asked what I
        thought, and could tell by my face. She had put a mom’s need for
        convenience before being a wife. She wept.”

      • Findo says:

        To quote the beginning of that paragraph:

        “In this season we shifted into ministry-and-family mode, neglecting our intimacy and failing to work through our issues. This became apparent to me when…”In other words, I understand them to be saying that they were so focused on ministry and family that they weren’t communicating properly, and that it became apparent to them that this was the case through this incident of non-communication.I can imagine that if I went and cut my hair short without talking to my wife about, she would probably look disappointed too. Spouses who are communicating well would naturally be talking about things like that, and I would certainly want to make sure that if my wife liked a certain ‘look’ that I wouldn’t just ignore that.

      • Sure…I’ll do about ten or twenty for now, for the sake of time constraints.
        “Had I known about this sin, I would not have married her.”
        “When I tried to talk to Grace about my depression, she talked too much about emotions.”
        “To make matters worse, seemingly every book I read by Christians on sex and marriage sounded unfair. Nearly every one said the husband had to work very hard to understand his wife, to relate to her.”
        “In conjunction with the rhythm method of birth control, it is possible to use anal sex as an option.”
        “My pregnant wife came home with her previously long hair that I loved
        chopped off & replaced with a short, mommish haircut. “She asked what I thought, and could tell by my face. She had put a mom’s need for convenience before being a wife. She wept.”
        “The 3rd function of birth control pills is potentially abortive in that it seeks to disrupt the life of a fertilized egg.”
        “If oral sex becomes a frequent substitute for normal intercourse, then it is becoming a problem. So long as it is part of a couple’s sexual life and not the primary sexual act, then it is a gift being stewarded well.”
        “Those who use birth control too long can be so used to being without children that they never seek to have children as God intends.”
        “It’s our strong recommendation that if a couple is going to err it would be on the side of too much rather than too little sex.”
        “One way we are selfish lovers: Only have sex when we both feel like it at the same time.”

        Andrew, in case you don’t find anything wrong with the quotes from Real Marriage that I’ve posted above, I should probably tell you that I live in Seattle and have been in group therapy sessions with women who attend Mars Hill church and are experiencing profound depression and anxiety secondary to the role they are pressured to play as members of Driscoll’s church. They have all said that they were asked to quit their jobs and start having babies so they did in order to be “obedient wives.” But they are deteriorating from the inside out. They must defer to their husbands and aren’t even allowed to seek counseling outside of Mars Hill church. If they don’t do what they are told they are subject to church discipline, and if people leave Mars Hill church the remaining members are told not to talk to the people who left anymore. It’s a very unhealthy and controlling system. The things that Driscoll says in this book are often couched in “but don’t be controlling or misogynistic” but there is indeed a strong system in place that doesn’t allow the women freedom of choice and by the same token, a strong system in place that doesn’t allow the men freedom to do anything the elders don’t allow.

         The women that I have been with in counseling sessions are anxious they will be found out that they are even there because as members they’re not allowed to seek outside counseling, but they say the therapy Mars Hill offers is just to “obey their husbands better” and “pray more.” The dozen or so women I know in this situation are extremely depressed and each have several children and I see their families eroding from the inside out. I see Mars Hill as very much a totalitarian regime, and as someone who grew up under significant spiritual abuse, I’m really sensitive to this sort of thing.

        If it also helps give you context, I’ve been married 13 years and have two children.

      • Findo says:

        “Had I known about this sin, I would not have married her.” 

        “When I tried to talk to Grace about my depression, she talked too much about emotions.” 
        “To make matters worse, seemingly every book I read by Christians on sex and marriage sounded unfair. Nearly every one said the husband had to work very hard to understand his wife, to relate to her.”

        Well those aren’t teaching they’re part of the section where they share their journey, and they specifically point out how they were disfunctional, had wrong thinking and needed help. To portray this as teaching is disingenuous.

        The rest of the quotes seem to be a case of you simply not agreeing with his views on sex. Rather than just quoting him and assuming it’s obvious that can be “damaging” would you care to show how such teaching is damaging?

        Even with the context you give of being in Seattle etc. I don’t see how what you’ve quoted is as dangerous to readers as you seem to think. (I’m confused by your assertion that there’s ”
        a strong system in place that doesn’t allow the men freedom to do anything the elders don’t allow” as the “ca we___” section of this book is about as liberal as any you’ll read when it comes to sex.And btw – the imagery of setting fire to books brings to mind a very unsavory group of people, who did just that (minus the sumo-poo) – so perhaps if you want more liberty, you should give it too?

      • Kells_Ash says:

        Findo, did you take a look at the other quotes Stephanie presented as examples of potentially damaging teachings?  You’ve only pulled out two to refute here, and I think I can easily see her point from what she’s written.

      • Findo says:

        I commented on the others too..

      • Jason Rudd says:

        I don’t give myself over to ad hominem attacks because they both underserve my argument and make a mockery of communication. However, I’ll go out on a limb, and state that Findo is a blithering troll who has meticulously reminded me that I feel blessed, nay, spiritually enlightened to have never participated or played any role in either evangelical or religious Christian experience. And with that, I bid a hasty farewell. I’m going to go have fun with people I love and forget Driscoll and his lambs exist.

      • Findo says:

        Hi Jason.

        Disagreeing, and asking someone to explain why they came to a different view / understanding does not  make them a troll. But it if makes you feel more “enlightened” to simply call names then go away, then be my guest.

      • Findo says:

        I should have added, I’m sorry, that I’m  not dismissing your accounts of what Seattle is like – and if that’s the case, then there are big problems!

      • Katie Jones says:

        Steph, you’re awesome. I don’t want to reply directly to Andrew, because he does not sound open to hearing about how others are hurting from something that is very important to him. I can understand why he does feel the need to defend these views from the book if they really do seem to be positive views for his life. Maybe they are. Maybe there is a less twisted way of understanding the things Mark Driscoll is trying to convey.

        It drives me crazy when people reject the validity of my own experiences, but I try to recognize that they don’t look at it that way. I don’t think Andrew thinks the trauma you and others have experienced is invalid or totally irrelevant. He simply thinks that a different perspective on the same material could alleviate that tension. The same teachings have affected you two in totally different ways. Maybe the most you can actively do is continue to provide support for all of the people who have been battered by harmful religious sentiment. And maybe there will come a day when Andrew will experience first-hand the things that you are trying to tell him. In the meantime, you’re doing an awesome job. Keep nursing the wounded. They need you. You’ll have a hard time disarming the men on the battlefield, but I respect you so much for continuing to fight. ♥

      • Findo says:

        You know what… maybe you’re right. Maybe I have been dismissive of experiences (and I appologise for that), and maybe that does deserve to be part of the context. I’ve tried to understand Driscoll as charitably as possible, but maybe that was a good, but misguided intention (and I should not presume that such a discussion can remain as academic or dry as I might be able to see it).

      • Katie Jones says:

        I’m not trying to side against you, Andrew. I have a really hard time trying to meet people where they are. I like to keep discussions academic or dry for the most part, too, and it’s hard for me to accommodate certain emotional appeals. I don’t think your POV is wrong at all and in some ways I think I understand it, but the only way to facilitate discussion with people who don’t share your POV is to try to place yourself in their shoes, to whatever capacity you’re able to do that. You might still disagree, but I think it’ll give you a better platform for understanding. I don’t fault you for not doing this with Steph, but I do care that she feels like she’s heard.

      • The Burner says:

        Thanks to all for the replies. Discussion among those who disagree is the best way for us to come together as the body of Christ.

      • Katie Jones says:

        Or as human beings :)

      • Gina says:

        Wow! That is quite amazing. There are so many things stated here that just make me shudder. I would have thought that something that operates in such a cult-like fashion (as what you have described from the people who have gone to Mars Hill) would not flourish like it apparently has. I feel for the women who get trapped in this church and especially for the young children being raised in it. From what I have read here, I fear there will be many more horror stories as the children grow up in such and unhealthy, oppressive community.

      • Lisa Marie Mutchler says:

         Thank you for sharing this, Stephanie. I have been concerned with Mars Hills’ church discipline practices since Matthew Paul Turner posted the story of excommunicated Mars Hill member “Andrew” on his blog a few weeks ago. If Mars Hill truly tells people they should not seek help outside of that local church community, that is extremely concerning.

  6. Deb Keller says:

    Wow, haven’t read the book; but I won’t now.  I was in Grace’s shoes once upon a time, married to a man with Mark’s views.   After 12 years of marriage and buying into his view I finally realized how emotionally abusive he was a divorced him.  Of course, my church doesn’t talk to me anymore, but it was incredible to have that weight lifted and realize that’s NOT how God intended us to live.

    • Deb, that must have been an incredibly difficult decision to make and a lot of pain to live in for a long time. I hope you’re finding a lot of freedom and healing now. You’re brave.

    • Masont says:

      Hi Deb – I don’t write this in an attempt to get you to read the book, but please, don’t let this review be the reason you don’t.  I question if they actually read the book, or if they just read other reviews, took some quotes, and copied/pasted some thoughts out of the comments section from other people who haven’t read the book. 

  7. Lauren says:

    I’m a married woman in my mid-twenties.  I’m educated, and I wouldn’t consider myself a feminist, but I am not a push-over in any way, shape, or form.  I believe in a complementation relationship between a man and a woman in marriage.  I do not live in a small, conservative city.  (I’m giving this “run down” because I feel it’s important to see that I am NOT someone who would just read a book which degrades women and be ok with it).  I have to say, I love Mark and Grace Driscoll’s book.  I have been blessed by it and learned so much about how to be a better wife, and my husband has learned even more than I have.  I am SO thankful for the input my husband has received from the Driscolls.  As a wife and a woman, I am in no way offended by anything they write about.  I appreciate the care this blog (and the others) have taken to stand up for women, but I am here to say it is not needed when delving into this book.  As a woman/wife, I was thankful for what my husband drew from it.  I feel cared for when I see how Mark takes marriage seriously, especially in the area of pornography.  Did this blog writer completely skip over the huge porn chapter?  Because what I read was the most upfront, in your face defense for women I have ever seen a Christian man write about.  Mark Driscoll often calls men out to grow up and throw out their porn stash, which I think is why he gets a lot of flack from men who would just rather not hear that.  Often people get mad that Mark talks a lot about sex and sexual sins.  That is because he is preaching to Seattle-ites.  Do you know how saturated that city is with sex, prostitution, and businesses like gothic fetish clubs?  His audience needs to hear what biblical sex is like, and they also need their sexual sin addressed more than other cities (and I’m saying this as a girl who was raised in Los Angeles).  Give Mark some grace, and don’t attack him when he is on orthodox Christianity’s side.

    • Thanks for the comments. The Burner has been waiting for someone in your demographic to respond positively to the book. TB is glad that you found the book to be helpful to your marriage.

      A two thoughts:

      - Yes, pornography is an issue in many, many marriages, and the Driscolls were right to address it (even though he was sure to include at the end of the chapter that–of course–he himself had never struggled with pornography). But the chapter was a defense for women then it would have at least mentioned the horrors that adult films stars endure while working in the industry. These stories have even been reported by the mainstream press, and should be something included in an “upfront, in your face” defense for women.

      - The Burner lives in the Los Angeles area, and is familiar with other West Coast cities. It causes red flags that you would give an out to Driscoll for his fixation on the topic of sex because Seattle is “saturated” with “sexual sins.” It is assuredly so that Seattle is no worse in the sin department than any other city, and that one could find any of the sinful activities in the buckle of the Bible Belt as one could in Seattle. There is no hierarchy of sin, so disparaging a city for certain sins is dangerous ground.

      TB would love to hear more about specific ideas/instructions in the book that you found helpful to being a better wife to your husband.

  8. Red says:

    “Of course there is such a blatant disregard for women with Driscoll.
    He’s (in)famous. I guess I just thought that his co-authorship with his
    wife Grace would temper his bombasticity. But she seems to have bought
    in to it.”

    Well….yeah, I would imagine so. Driscoll has always modeled this sort of attitude toward women, the whole time he’s been married. It seems logical that, for this to be the case, Grace either believed in that sort of thing before they got married, or has been bullied into it by living with it for more than a decade.

    To be honest, some of the things Driscoll says about his wife sound worrisome. He has stated in other books/sermons that he controls who she becomes friends with, what e-mails she reads, and that he used to threaten guys that she roomed near in college. So to say that she has given in to an unhealthy view of male/female relations is a huge understatement. It’s been the reality for her during the entirety of their marriage, if his public statements on women in general (and his wife in particular) are any sort of sign.

    And to those who ask this poster/commenters for examples of Mark’s bad ideas in this book…..have you read the four-part post? There are examples by the truckload. Please read the entire thing before you ask questions that have already been answered.

  9. Steve says:

    Sorry, I guess I’m a jerk. I don’t see what is so disgusting about this book. I find it very insightful, even just reading the sections here that are out of context and highlighted for their supposed distastefulness. I think maybe the reviewer has been a little brainwashed by contemporary pagan culture. Is there any sort of Biblical argument he can raise against any of it?

    • WK says:

      That’s what I was kind of thinking, but I’m a guest and don’t know anything about the host of this site.
      All I’ve ever seen of Driscoll is him being super hard on guys. I thought he was one of those speakers who pandered to women by being tough on guys, but maybe I was wrong.

  10. Ryanhern24 says:

    I would like a King Jesus gospel book please. Mark Driscoll makes an interesting play on marriage in this book. I haven’t read it but from what I hear from his interviews it’s been pretty interesting.

  11. WK says:

    I find this witch hunt distasteful. I found your “review” weird, incomplete, and biased.
    The “pearls” that you quoted… (again, taken out of context) I can’t figure out what you think is wrong with them. Just weird things to say?
    I suspect Driscoll is probably a bossy sort of fellow, but the things he suggested… there’s nothing wrong with them.
    Imagine the Devil’s between you. He’s saying that the Devil wants to keep you apart.
    The naked people line is probably about pornography.

    His intention is obvious in all the quotes that his intention is to bring couples closer together.
    That’s what I see, anyway.

  12. WK says:

    The burner said… But the chapter was a defense for women then it would have at least mentioned the horrors that adult films stars endure while working in the industry. These stories have even been reported by the mainstream press, and should be something included in an “upfront, in your face” defense for women.

    Why the heck would he do that? What would the relevance be for the average couple reading this book? Sorry, you have just betrayed your prejudice.
    I now think you must be some immature young person without any real communicating skills.
    All credibility lost.

  13. Hannah says:

    Poor Grace…I hope their kids won’t be loaded with a lot of baggage by such a controlling dad and a seemingly ‘voiceless’ mum. Praying for them…

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